This Q&A post contains questions about QLD Lot Owners concerned with the noisy floorboards upstairs.
Table of Contents:
- QUESTION: The apartment owners upstairs have glued noisy vinyl floors straight onto the concrete. The tenants are very noisy. How does the body corporate assess the noise from the new flooring and the effect it is having on neighbours?
- QUESTION: I am thinking about installing soundproofing and insulation in the ceiling and a wall in my apartment as I hear children running around on the very noisy floor upstairs on a daily basis.
- QUESTION: The new family upstairs have laid vinyl floorboards. They claim that because the building is old with thinner walls, floors etc, they do not have to use a noise insulator.
- QUESTION: Is it legal to have floorboards in an upstairs unit? I am sure you can understand, at times we are disturbed by the noisy floorboards upstairs.
Question: The apartment owners upstairs have glued noisy vinyl floors straight onto the concrete. The tenants are very noisy. How does the body corporate assess the noise from the new flooring and the effect it is having on neighbours?
Noise complaints due to a change of flooring in a unit have been submitted to body corporate. The owners did not contact the committee before replacing the carpet with noisy choice luxury vinyl floors.
The owner has confirmed that it was glued straight on to the concrete with no underlay. He states that it was not required.
Footsteps can be heard whenever the occupants walk around the unit. Opening and closing cupboard doors and everything is so loud. Two units, one beside and one above them, have had their lives turned upside down with a loss of sleep and loss of enjoyment of their homes.
The tenants are unruly. The property manager doesn’t care and refuses to believe the tenant is noisy. The owners don’t think they need to do anything except ask the tenants to be a bit quieter.
One of the neighbours from an adjoining unit has recorded the loud noises made by the tenants. Can this be used as proof of some of the noise the neighbours are being subjected to? Sometimes it is of a loud sexual nature.
How does the body corporate assess the noise from the new flooring and the effect it is having on neighbours and other residents?
Answer: Statutory declarations from residents, verifiable recordings of the noise, test results or third party noise monitoring will all increase your ability to resolve the complaint.
Before moving forward into the details on this case, the first point to make is that directly glued vinyl to concrete is a totally unacceptable form of flooring in a multi-occupant structure.
Vinyl floors will increase the actual noise created by steps, furniture moves, things being dropped upstairs, and will do nothing to attenuate the noise from getting into the building structure. From there it will be transmitted through the floor/ceiling and likely also through the building structure to other residents on the same level, the level below and sometimes even further away.
It is possible for the Strata Manager / Body Corporate to enforce based on multiple complainants, particularly if you have a set of noise diaries recording dates / times and the nature of the noise issues. But these can be challenged in some cases if there is a perception of residents ganging up on one resident.
In terms of measuring the noise there are 2 approaches:
- The formal engineering test is an impact test, where a weight is dropped in a controlled manner on the floor surface and the noise impact is measured in the apartment below. Vinyl without underlay will definitely fail this test. But this does require access to the apartment in question.
- The second option is to prove unacceptable nuisance (as you would other noise issues such as a dog, noisy washing machine or as you say loud sexual type noises). This involves installing noise monitoring equipment in the apartment below (or wherever the nuisance is heard) and documenting the frequency and severity of the noise nuisance. This is more qualitative as there is no official standard in place and is more open to challenge in the tribunal. However with testing over a sufficiently long period of time and particularly with serious cases such as the one you are describing, this is perfectly effective.
It is the responsibility of the Strata Committee, working with the building manager to assess and resolve issues of unacceptable noise nuisance. Your by-laws and the state laws exist to support this action. What remains is gathering the required evidence to enforce the replacement of the vinyl flooring with carpet and underlay. And potentially also behaviour change by the residents in question.
In Queensland, the commissioner made it clear at a recent Q&A session. Making a decision on noise nuisance is all about the evidence. So statutory declarations from residents, verifiable recordings of the noise, test results or third party noise monitoring will all increase your ability to resolve the complaint and be sure that the decisions of the Strata are supported if it goes to tribunal or court.
Stuart Clough
Noisenet
E: [email protected]
This post appears in Strata News #308.
Question: I am thinking about installing soundproofing and insulation in the ceiling and a wall in my apartment as I hear children running around on the very noisy floor upstairs on a daily basis.
I am thinking about installing soundproofing and insulation in the ceiling and a wall in my apartment as I hear children running around on a daily basis. I do not believe this is a structural change but a lot improvement change to my unit and not common property. Do I need to go through the committee for approval to do this?
My issue is as follows:
- When the owner put in brand new carpet 2 and half years ago he did not change the very old underlay;
- The noise has only started coming through since the tenants above with 2 young children moved in;
- The contractor advised that the ceiling and walls are hollow and that is the reasons for the noise coming through;
- Insulation has been recommended by a certified contractor with soundproofing in it to assist with the transference of noise.
- I am currently going through the committee to get their approval pursuant to the by-laws.
I am just worried that they are not going to approve this as it has been a 2.5 year noise dispute.
Does the committee have any grounds to not approve the insulation?
Answer: Ensure that you are really going to solve the problem. Money spent at the source of noise is most effective.
Stuart: Ensure that you are really going to solve the problem. Money spent at the source of noise is more effective – eg carpet instead of tiles or floorboards will have a much greater impact than insulation in your walls.
Also make sure:
- That the noise is coming through the walls or ceiling. Often it travels through the structure and through exposed beams. In this case, insulation of your walls will have no effect. You may need professional help to determine this as it isn’t always obvious.
- It’s good to see that the insulation you have been recommended is Noise Rated. Just standard Clark Rubber foam or thermal wall insulation will have a limited effect.
Stuart Clough
Noisenet
E: [email protected]
Frank Higginson: It will depend on what the by-laws say as that may require approval from the committee.
It is not possible to say if the committee can validly refuse an application without the committee providing reasons for refusal.
However, the other consideration for you as the occupier below is whether the noise that is being caused amounts to an unreasonable interference. If it does, and there is an appropriate by-law dealing with noise and nuisance, then the committee would be obliged to take by-law enforcement action against the use of the lot upstairs. The occupier downstairs might also want to send the committee a form 1.
Frank Higginson
Hynes Legal
E: [email protected]
P: 07 3193 0500
This post appears in Strata News #250.
Question: The new family upstairs have laid vinyl floorboards. They claim that because the building is old with thinner walls, floors etc, they do not have to use a noise insulator.
I have lived in my strata unit for many years. The new owners of the unit above have pulled up the carpet and laid vinyl floorboards and we now have to put up with the very noisy floorboards upstairs.
I asked them before laying if they could let me know what underlay is going in, as we have by-law 1 Noise.
They didn’t ask and they used the thin plastic foam underlay instead of a noise insulator.
We are living with constant noise and thumping in our ceiling from each step, drawers opening and closing and small children running through the apartment.
The owners said it was too expensive for the noise insulator so they used the cheaper underlay.
They also claim to have investigated the legislation prior to carrying out the renovation. They believe that because our building was built in 1986 with thinner walls, floor etc, they are able to put whatever down they wanted. Is this correct?
I can’t seem to find any reference to this information anywhere in the Queensland legislation.
Answer: I very much doubt the age of the building has anything to do with the type of flooring that can be installed.
I very much doubt the age of the building has anything to do with the type of flooring that can be installed. What matters is:-
- What the by-laws say about works to the unit. The by-laws should provide that before any works are conducted to the internal components of the lot that the approval of the committee is sought. The committee can then impose reasonable conditions on the works that would normally extend to the type and standard of the underlay that has to be put in.
- The second thing (if that didn’t happen, which it sounds like it did not) is that the owner cannot use the lot in a way that interferes unreasonably with the use and enjoyment of others. It would appear that (almost regardless of the underlay) that the use of the lot is interfering with the owner below. that is potentially a breach of the by-laws. So the next step starts with what the by-laws are, whether they are enforceable, gathering the evidence of unreasonable interference, asking the committee to do something about it, and then making an application to the Commissioner’s Office for conciliation if nothing happens.
Frank Higginson
Hynes Legal
E: [email protected]
P: 07 3193 0500
This post appears in Strata News #210.
Question: Is it legal to have floorboards in an upstairs unit? I am sure you can understand, at times we are disturbed by the noisy floorboards upstairs.
My partner & I rent a unit on the Gold Coast. We live on the 2nd floor in a walkup of 3 floors.
The owner of the upstairs unit recently ripped up the carpet and put down floorboards.
Unfortunately, they did not have the courtesy to advise us and we had to endure a great deal of noise for about 4 weeks.
Anyway, my question is: Is it legal to have floorboards in an upstairs unit? I am sure you can understand, at times we are disturbed by the noisy floorboards upstairs.
We would be most grateful for your reply.
Answer: For us what matters is not the style of flooring but the interference that comes from the use of it.
The age-old issue!
For us what matters is not the style of flooring but the interference that comes from the use of it.
The threshold standard at law is ‘unreasonable’ interference. It follows then that ‘reasonable’ interference is acceptable. The price of community living is living in compromise.
On this particular issue, there are two things that come to mind. The first was the interference during the installation of the flooring. We think it is completely reasonable for there to be a by-law which allows for the committee to approve and impose conditions around renovation works. This then gives a committee the ability to dictate times and other conditions around renovations that means the interference with neighbours is as least disruptive as possible.
The second is the ongoing interference that may be caused by the use of the floor. That will depend very much on the circumstances. If there is a 10-year-old child up there bouncing a basketball around all hours of the day and night then that is likely to be unreasonable interference. If there is an 80-year-old grandmother who slides around in slippers all day then there is likely to be no interference at all – not even ‘reasonable’ interference! That interference (or not) will exists regardless of the type of flooring.
For us, that is a very important distinction. It is not the floor itself that causes interference – it is the use of it. Granted, harder flooring surfaces might not muffle the sound as much as carpeted floors, but it still comes down to its use.
Frank Higginson
Hynes Legal
E: [email protected]
P: 07 3193 0500
This post appears in Strata News #136.
Have a question about noisy floorboards upstairs or something to add to the article? Leave a comment below.
Read More:
- QLD: Q&A Can I Get My Body Corporate to Test Noise Levels in My Unit?
- QLD: Oppressive or Unreasonable – QLD Strata Bylaws
Still after more about noisy floors upstairs or even more general articles about strata in Queensland? Visit Strata Noisy Neighbours OR Strata Legislation Queensland
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As an acoustic engineer with over 25 years of experience in floor impact noise in Queensland and having experience with over 200 high-rise buildings, I believe that I am in a position to offer some clarity on this matter. Firstly dropping weights onto a floor and logging noise levels in a room underachieves nothing. The issue is that this is a neighborhood problem that first should be managed by neighbors talking to each other. When this is not possible and to prevent possible problems, the matters become a Body Corporate requirement to set appropriate by-laws. These laws are often in two parts. One part references a need for neighbors not to create undue or excessive noise from hard floor surfaces. This is difficult to enforce as it is all subjective. The second part is to set a defined floor impact rating noise limit (LnTw under ISO standards). The problem here is that the terminology is not well understood. The terminology applies a corrected noise level in the lower apartment from a standard tapping machine dropping 500gm weights at 10 times per second onto the floor of concern. Under the National Construction Code (NCC) a limit of LnTw 60 is applied. Unfortunately, many people are still affected by noise and Body Corporates often try to set lower limits. These By-Laws are established after the building has been constructed and adjudicated by the Body Corporate Commission.
Floor impact noise is an issue of structural dynamics, with the noise affected by the thickness of a concrete floor, any pre or post-stressing applied to the floor, the columns’ location, and whether or not there is a ceiling under it. Carpet is the ideal solution to manage floor impact noise, but this is not the preferred floor treatment in QLD.
A builder will often build to the NCC’s minimum standards during construction, with all floors set to this minimum rating. It is only when an owner wishes to renovate that by-Laws will take effect, and owners then carry the cost of any floor impact insulation. Should a rating of less than LnTw 55 be required, this can require an underlay greater than 8mm thick. This becomes expensive and is not easy to lay correctly.
Any solution to manage floor impact noise is a compromise, and in many cases, people learn to live with the noise and, in effect, “tune it out.” However, some people will become more “tuned” to the noise and affected. There is no solution to protect all the people all of the time when considering that residential apartments are often separated by 200mm of concrete and no ceiling. Further to this, some residents will not generate floor impact noise, whereas other occupants (particularly where children play) can create high noise affecting lower residents. This noise has to be managed by people being considerate of their neighbors, with the By-Laws spelling out a need for owners/tenants to not create undue noise that could impact adjacent areas’ amenities.
The compromise solution is a well-written By-Law that sets a defined rating using achievable impact insulation ratings and understands that owners/tenancy must not create excessive noise. Floor impact insulation testing is a crucial part of the strategy.
Ross Palmer CPEng RPEQ
[removed by admin]
Hi!
We purchased a ground floor unit which we have lived in for one year now. It is in an old 2 story block with only 8 units. It was first registered in 1967, so it falls under the 1965 by-laws. The issue is, the second floor units all had carpet & underlay, laid onto tongue & grove boards. The unit above us have pulled up the carpet and underlay and have polished the old boards which sit directly on the structs in our ceiling, leaving no insulation what so ever. Apart from the noise being incredible loud & disturbing, any spilled liquids, leak through the boards and come through our light fittings. Do we have any rights? Are the owners above us allowed to remove the floor insulation? Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Hi Joelle
The following response has been provided by Chris Irons, Hynes Legal:
The article above goes into a bit of detail about what your options are. If there’s no by-laws preventing the owners upstairs from doing what they’ve done, that’s one thing but they still are obliged to not cause a nuisance. Similarly, if their actions are causing damage – e.g., water ingress into your lot – that’s also something they can potentially be held accountable for.
Have you approached them and/or the committee of the building about your situation? If not then that’s your first step. You should also be keeping a log of noise issues, as you need to evidence of your situation. Regarding the water issue, you might need to approach a plumber to get a report and/or quote.
Following that and if the issue still remains you may need to use the dispute resolution process of my former Office and again, those details are in the article.
Finally, if your by-laws are as old as you say they are, then they probably need review. You can propose a motion to your next general meeting for this. While you don’t need a lawyer to draft your by-laws, it is strongly advisable.
great information thank you.
Several occupants in our recently completed apartment building have complained about acoustic noise transferring from other apartments, usually from above and limited to those with tiled floors. The developer/builder (same organisation) have tested several apartments, some have failed and others are very high ie. between 55dB and 62dB. They have committed to remediating the failed apartments but no comment so far on those that are well above 50dB.
Problem is, the developer/builder, also being the original owner, put in place the by-laws and included one that stipulated that any alterations to the flooring must not exceed 50dB , which is far more appropriate for multi-story apartment than the NCC code of 62dB. This suggests that they themselves had intended to install flooring that did not exceed 50dB.
My question: is 50dB a reasonable standard for apartment flooring? Also, where does the original owners by-law leave the body corporate in terms of enforcing the standard BCCM Act 1997 ‘occupiers right to peace and enjoyment’ by-law? If one by-law makes reference to not exceeding 50dB with flooring and the occupiers know for a fact that the apartment above does, what then? Is the ‘offending’ lot owner responsible for the remedy or the builder/developer?
Hi Tony
Chris Irons, Hynes Legal has responded to your question in this article: QLD: Oppressive or Unreasonable Strata Bylaws
We have received this comment from Stuart Clough, NoiseNet:
There are regulations in the Building Code of Australia around floor to ceiling noise, and although older buildings are not subject to that, the strata committee should not be permitting any modifications to buildings that make a non-compliant situation even worse.
Moving from a soft surface (carpet) to a hard surface (floorboards or worse, to tiles/slate) very significantly increases the noise levels created on the floor surface. This can be from shoes, furniture, dropped items. Once these sounds are created, the hard surfaces more effectively transmit the sound to the residents below (and sometimes to the adjoining apartments as well) resulting in not only noisy floorboards upstairs, but next door too. Foam will not really help unless it is an acoustic foam which can absorb and dampen the sound vibrations.
Minimising impact noises on the floorboards of the apartment above may help somewhat:
– removing shoes in the apartment;
– putting soft pads on feet of furniture;
– reducing general noise levels (music/TV/etc).
However, these measures will never be as effective as good acoustic design in the building, soft floor coverings and/or sound insulation underfloor.
There are a range of sound insulating foams/treatments available that can measurably reduce noise levels. Any strata manager should be insisting that this is installed at an appropriate thickness to compensate for a move from carpet to a hard flooring surface.
More proactive managers may even insist that this is carried out for all flooring changes, as this will over time result in quieter apartments for all residents, better sleep, happier residents and ultimately higher valuations.
If we’re a tenant with similar problems, and have been told by the property/building manager that the owner/occupier above installed floorboard underlay to code, are we within our rights to ask for the installation details?
Hi Tom
We have received the following reply from Frank Higginson:
That is not what you should be asking for.
What they have installed is neither here nor there. What matters is whether they are using their lot in a way that interferes unreasonably with yours. If they are, then you have rights.
So, what you should be doing is collating evidence of what happens and when, including the sound levels, and then preparing a submission to the body corporate about by-laws.
But if you are a tenant, it might just be easier to move out when the lease expires…..